The Bitcoin Dream Job: How To Get Hired

Introduction

The “Bitcoin Dream Job” panel at Bitcoin Atlantis 2024, moderated by Vivian Cheng, features panelists Martell Fox, Thunder, and Rune Ostgard, who share their experiences working in the Bitcoin industry and offer advice for those seeking to enter the field. Martell Fox, founder of Layer 4 Talent, a Bitcoin recruitment firm, and Thunder, talent acquisition partner at the Layer 4 Talent, appreciate the shared values of sovereignty, independence, and freedom in the Bitcoin community. Rune Ostgard, a Norwegian author with 25 years of legal consulting experience, has written three books on money, including “The Arrow of Truth” about Bitcoin.

The panelists advise those seeking a career in Bitcoin to develop local communities, map out their skills and desires, find the right people to work for, prioritize cultural fit, and be honest during the interview process. They emphasize that being a Bitcoiner is no longer enough; companies now prioritize finding the best candidates with the required skills and cultural fit. The panel encourages honesty, openness, and confidence during the job search process to support the ultimate goal of working together to support Bitcoin. Let’s dive in!

Vivian Cheng:

So, my name is Vivian. I’ll be the moderator for this panel. Before we jump into it, let’s give a round of applause for our panelists, and then we’ll get started. Alright, Bitcoin dream job. Before we dive into the topic, let’s hear an intro from our panelists. So, we have Martell, Thunder, and Rune here. Maybe give us a short intro of what you do, who you are, and how long you’ve been in Bitcoin.

Martell Fox:

Hi, hi everyone, and thank you, Vivian, and thank you, Rockstar. His name is all that it implies; he’s truly a star who rocks. So, yeah, I’m Martell. I’m the founder of Layer Four Talent. It’s a recruitment firm focused on the Bitcoin space, specializing in executive and technical talent. Prior, I was the COO and Chief People Officer at Ibex, a Lightning infrastructure company, and before that, I was working in software as a Chief People Officer, Head of Talent, and Recruiter in a company called Swapcard. Today, I’m trying to bring all my experiences from the past and dedicate them to the Bitcoin space and help as many companies as possible grow their teams and achieve their dreams.

Thunder:

That was such a good introduction that mine looks okay. So, hello, I’m Thunder. This is my first time on stage, so don’t boo me too much. Thank you. So, I’ve been in recruiting for the last seven years, and the last three years, I recruit in the Bitcoin space. I’ve also been a head of talent; and also just joined Layer Four as a talent partner. I do a lot of things, but I do my dream job. I help people get their dream job. I’m an author of two completely free ebooks on how you guys can get a job in Bitcoin, but we can talk about that a bit later. Thank you.

Rune Ostgard:

So, my name is Rune Ostgard. I’m from Norway. I have 25 years of experience from legal consulting, working as a lawyer in the public and the private sector, and the last three years, I’ve been busy writing books. So, these days, I consider myself to be an author first of all. So, I’ve written three books on money. The first book is called “Fraudcoin,” the second book is called “Unbar,” and it’s about the relationship between the monetary system and globalization. We just recently launched it, and those two books, “Fraudcoin” and “Unbar,” are actually the most popular books in the economics category in Norway at the moment. So, that’s something that I take some pride in. Thanks. And the upcoming book is about Bitcoin. So, we will launch that book in, I think, in April. It’s called “The Arrow of Truth.” The two first books are available in English, and the third will also be available in English. So, I consider myself already to have the dream job because I love writing.

Vivian Cheng:

Amazing. So, today we have someone who is very experienced at finding a dream job, and we have people who are experienced in helping people find dream jobs. And myself, my name is Vivian, and I’ve been doing marketing, communication, and operation for Bitcoin companies for the past three years. I’m also the producer and host for the “Life with Bitcoin” podcast, focusing on personal transformation through the lens of Bitcoin. So, let’s dive in. Martel, what is your favorite thing about working in Bitcoin?

Martell: Fox

It’s going to be quite corny, but of course, it’s the people. I think when I first entered the Bitcoin space, I was feeling quite alone in life. It was like during 2020 when I was entering professionally, and I felt like I was kind of the only one I knew, more or less, with my values. And maybe some of you can relate to that before you find other bitcoiners. And when I met bitcoiners, it was like, “Whoa, this is a really high-intensity group of people who share similar values to me.” You meet all kinds of bitcoiners. I mean, you can meet a rancher, you can meet people working in tech, you meet all these interesting people who are linked by the desire to be sovereign and independent and prioritize freedom. So, yeah, I’d say that’s the coolest part about working in Bitcoin and getting to know bitcoiners.

Vivian Cheng:

Do you have anything that you dislike about working in Bitcoin? Can you think of anything?

Martell Fox:

I think I’m sometimes impatient. Like, I just want the world to know all that Bitcoin is and everything we’re doing, and sometimes it’s… yeah, it tests your patience for sure. But slowly but surely, we have a low time preference; we can wait it out.

Vivian Cheng:

How about Thunder? What’s your experience working in Bitcoin?

Thunder:

So, I love the fact that my life values are aligned with my work. That’s a big one. And the second one is the community. The Bitcoin community is one of a kind. I often get overwhelmed with stories, with experiences, with projects. Just last night, I heard of another project when I came back to my hotel, and I was like, “I’m overwhelmed again. Like, this is such a wonderful idea. This is beautiful.” This community gives so much to the world that it’s truly overwhelming. And what I dislike is that we don’t have enough jobs available. I’m a recruiter, so I always go on that end, right? So, I wish we had more jobs available for bitcoiners.

Vivian Cheng:

And why do you think this is the case?

Thunder:

We’re still a small industry; we’re growing, but we will get there.

Vivian Cheng:

And Rune, you’ve been into Bitcoin for the past 20 months, I’ve heard, so you’re a relatively new bitcoiner, but you’ve already written your book and are working in Bitcoin. So, for someone who wants to work in Bitcoin, what should they even think about before they make that decision?

Rune Ostgard:

Well, I kind of think that it’s important to have a sort of local Bitcoin community. So, to start working on developing a local community of bitcoiners, that’s kind of important for me. And it requires a whole lot of volunteering, of course, if you want to grow that. And when you have that local base, you also have support locally. It might be easier to achieve something in the whole space, I think. So, that’s quite important. And, of course, if you want to find a new job, map out your skills and what your desires are, what are your strong sides, and try to identify where you can make use of that. And when I talk to younger people who ask me what they should look for in a new job, whether it’s in Bitcoin or another place, I think that the most important thing is who are you going to work for? Who will be your nearest leader? Because your nearest leader, your manager, is going to be the one who can give you the opportunities so you can develop and go places and find new opportunities. So, I think, this is the most important advice that I can give: find the right people to work for, and that’s more important than what kind of job. Working with the right people matters the most.

Vivian Cheng:

Well said. We sometimes say that choices are more important than effort. That’s for sure true in some cases. And funny story, for my side, I’m someone who got very lucky. I got a Bitcoin job before I became a bitcoiner and then became a bitcoiner along the way. So, I’m sure that’s not going to be the case for everybody. And I only joined the space about three years ago, and at the time, it was extremely hard to find bitcoiners who are experienced. And today, we have exponential growth on the Bitcoin standard. We have more and more bitcoiners joining the force each day. And I wonder, from a recruiting perspective, in today’s Bitcoin job market, does being a bitcoiner itself still give you a competitive edge today? I’m sure everybody here is a bitcoiner. Is being a bitcoiner being enough today?

Thunder:

That’s not enough anymore. That’s the short answer. It’s not enough.

Martell Fox:

So, with some of the clients we work with, now, for example, let’s say we’re hiring a full-stack engineer, the priority is to find the best full-stack engineer that we can find. And the criteria are different for every company. Always on the wish list is for them to be a bitcoiner, but when we put people through the whole interview process, the technical tests, and at the end, we could have two candidates, let’s say, who are equally qualified, and maybe one’s a bitcoiner, and one’s not. Of course, it’s usually the bitcoiner who’s going to be chosen. However, if we get to the end of the process and the person who’s tested best and is the best developer, and they’ve proven that, and they’re open-minded to joining a Bitcoin company, that’s the person who’s going to be hired. So, it’s quite competitive, as Thunder said. There’s not yet enough jobs in the space. I would say hold out, keep working hard, upskill if you’re hoping for a Bitcoin job and you haven’t found it yet. Spend your time learning new skills, upskilling, so you can be that top applicant.

Vivian Cheng:

So, I have a follow-up question on that. If simply being a bitcoiner is not enough anymore, what are some of the qualities that Bitcoin companies look at when they are looking for talents compared to traditional industries or even compared to tech industries? That’s a very special quality that Bitcoin companies look for.

Thunder:

I think cultural fit is maybe something that we don’t talk about enough, but I would say it’s the most important thing. Like, if you are already in an interview process, sure, you have a skill set, you’re a bitcoiner, awesome, but are you the cultural fit? The fact that you are a bitcoiner does not mean that you are a cultural fit with every team. So, the beauty of this industry is that we are still small, so we have time to develop those wonderful working, efficient teams that just get along so well. And we need to be very careful when we talk about those cultural fits. Like, you want to make sure that you are going to love your job. It’s a two-way street. So, I think the cultural fit is maybe the most important criteria.

Martell Fox:

And I couldn’t agree more. I think when Thunder and I first met, that’s one of the things that we clicked on, that to build the companies we’ve built, we’ve actually done our culture interview first. And the culture we’re talking about is the value system that’s in each startup, which varies from startup to startup, company to company. So, if you’re a job seeker, what you should do is look around at the companies, try to figure out what their values are, and you’re also going to enjoy your time. You’re going to be more successful if you find that right team that you’re aligned with.

And then, during the interview process, sometimes I’ll ask this on behalf of many job seekers and companies because I’ve hired for my own team, and what I realized is that sometimes when you’re interviewing candidates, they can be amazing at the interview. They can really provide that wow factor and with great confidence. And then, when they’re on the job, they can’t do the job, or vice versa. There are candidates who do not do very well in showcasing their skill set in a short amount of time under interview, under time pressure, but they really have the right skill set and the discipline and the spirit, the cultural fit, to really thrive in the organization.

Vivian Cheng:

So, I want to hear from both perspectives. First, from Rune, you’re a job seeker’s perspective. How do you cultivate your confidence? Do you have any specific tips or practices you use to make sure your skill set and your ability to the fullest extent?

Rune Ostgard:

I think when you prepare for the interview, it’s important to remember that in the Bitcoin community, truth matters a whole lot. And so, if you aren’t totally honest with yourself and with the people that you are talking to in the interview, it might come back and hit you later on because this is still a small community. So, be forward-looking and be honest with yourself and the people you are talking to. That’s very important. And it’s especially important in interview situations because I know, with my background as a lawyer, I know that two places where people lie a whole lot are in the courtrooms when there are witnesses and also in interview sessions. So, try to be as honest as possible, and be prepared.

Vivian Cheng:

For sure, and from a recruitment perspective?

Martell Fox:

Yeah, so another thing Thunder and I aligned on right away was the way we run interview processes are quite rigorous. Okay, first one’s the culture interview; we get people really vulnerable to share a lot about themselves. We go deep, get to know them as a person and get very personal. Then, you know, we up it where we do live challenges, so we’re asking them not just, “Hey, tell me when you failed in a job.” We don’t ask those kinds of questions because that’s when you see people start ssaying what they think we want to hear, and people can also feel like they’re put on the spot. My own mind would go blank if someone asked me that question. But rather, the questions to ask are live examples. Such as, “Let’s imagine a scenario”, and we get them imagining and dreaming, “Imagine we just got hacked and three Bitcoin were stolen from us; you as the CTO, what are you going to do?” So, we look for someone who’s not just going to solve the problem; they’re going to also tell us how they’re going to communicate to the investors, how they communicate to the teammates, how do they communicate to the clients, and then how do they prevent that problem from ever happening again. That’s just one example.

Another example would be asking them, “Alright, imagine our app just went viral, and we have way too many users; we’re overloaded. How are we going to solve this problem?” So, those types of questions, they don’t rely on your memory and telling some story; it’s putting you in a situation where if you have the skill, you’re going to know exactly what to do, and it’s proof of work, basically. And on the interviewer side, you’re looking for someone who tells you something you don’t know through the process.

So, I think we’ve both developed systems where we really avoid hiring someone who comes in and actually doesn’t meet expectations because of this. We also run technical tests if it’s a technical person; if it’s a non-technical person, we will do another sort of recruitment challenge, like proof of work. And if anyone is in a hiring position out there, if any of you are founders, we’re always happy to just give you some tips on how to run that kind of process so you don’t hire someone who comes in, as you described, and isn’t what you expected. There are some systems to solve that problem.

Vivian Cheng:

I see, and the question for Thunder, for job seekers, what are some tips for job seekers, candidates, to really boost up their confidence during job interviews?

Thunder:

So, I always love to put myself in someone else’s shoes. If you are on a job interview, you really want that job. If you’re a bitcoiner interviewing for a Bitcoin-only company, you are nervous; you want this, and you are aware that you’re not the only candidate in the process. So, you know, that can make you quite nervous, right? What I like to tell people is that this is a two-way street. I just mentioned that a few minutes ago, but it’s so important for everyone to remember that it’s a two-way street. Yes, the interviewer needs to like you, but you also need to like them. I’m an interviewer, and I cannot tell you how many times I get nervous. I see someone, a great candidate, wonderful personality, like the vibe, everything; it’s perfect. Like, I want this person to like the job. So, it’s not just the job seekers; interviewers sometimes also get nervous.

Also, don’t waste your opportunities to ask questions during an interview. Yes, they want to get to know you, but you need to get to know them too. Use your time. If you are asked, “Do you have any questions?” Say yes, you do. Think about your questions in advance, write them down. I talked about that quite a lot in “Kiss Your Fiat Job Goodbye,” which is the ebook that I mentioned in my introduction, just go to http://www.thunder.wtf, and download it; there is a list of questions that you could ask during an interview to make sure that you know this is the right company for you. So, just think about that; they need to like you, but you also need to like them.

Vivian Cheng:

Alright, so we see it’s a process where we need to be honest, we need to be open, confident, and we just need to remember that at the end of the day, we’re all humans. And either we’re the job seeker, or we are sitting on the table of recruitment; we’re just all humans and working for Bitcoin. And I think that’s the bottom line to get it through. And for dream jobs, I’m sure financial stability is part of it. We all want to be stabilized in our lives, to be a good bitcoiner, stack sats. But we know that there’s a seasonality in Bitcoin, the bear and bull markets, the market conditions, and then how the industry just naturally flows. So, us individuals, us people who are already working in Bitcoin or want to work in Bitcoin, do you have any advice in terms of how can we better prepare ourselves professionally and financially working in Bitcoin, knowing that there’s a natural cycle and rhythm of the market?

Martell Fox:

Great question. Yeah, I think we can just manage expectations. Obviously, in a bear market, teams have to hunker down; they’re a bit more engineering-focused. We see mostly engineering roles. And then in the bull market, we see, okay, now we got to sell and market and share with the world all those things that the engineers were building. So, we see more marketing roles, more sales roles, more business development, also more operations-type roles because we’re scaling.

Vivian Cheng:

And Rune, how about you? You’re a job seeker, so how are you preparing yourself for the natural market rhythm as a professional in Bitcoin?

Rune Ostgard:

How I would prepare myself for the ups and downs in the Bitcoin business cycle? I don’t really know if I have any answer to that because I came so late into Bitcoin, some 20 months ago, at then it was rock bottom, you know, at 17,000 or something like that. So, I don’t have much of an experience with that. But I think if you find something that you love doing, that’s the most important thing. And stay focused on your work and growing the community, contribute in every way you can, and help others who perhaps struggle when the down phase hits you. Yeah, that should be something good to think about. I think what you can do for the others, yes, exactly, instead of focusing on how you should deal with these challenges yourself.

Vivian Cheng:

Looking forward to hearing your experience after you’ve experienced the full cycle in the Bitcoin job market. But one thing I can contribute to this is that one thing I find helpful is to be flexible with the kind of project you take on. Oftentimes, if you’re willing to work hourly based, if you’re willing to work project-based, part-time based, full-time based, if you remain flexible and have different portfolios under different setups, then when the market is bad or when there’s the demand naturally fluctuate, then you can position yourself towards different types of clients, towards different types of projects. Because every Bitcoin company, we all have our unique problems, we all have our unique needs for talent, and the setup that they prefer. So, if you position yourself to be flexible and approachable, and you can work with their needs when working with different types of clients, that’s going to give you a competitive edge when dealing with the natural rhythm of the market.

Martell Fox:

Maybe I could add something else. It’s also perfectly fine to not have a Bitcoin job or, you know, put it off till later because you being a Bitcoiner wherever you work right now is super helpful. I mean, it’s a way that you can encourage other people; you can educate your own company wherever you’re working about Bitcoin. And it’s perfectly fine to be doing that and actually adds a lot of value to the whole industry. The more we disperse and we spread out and not just huddle amongst ourselves, actually.

Vivian Cheng:

Yeah, and I know that there are so many people who are previously in the fiat world looking for a Bitcoin job, but they don’t know how to start, where their current job doesn’t really give them a clear direction of what they can be doing, translate that skill into the Bitcoin world. So, for those of whom who are looking for a Bitcoin job, looking to work in the industry but don’t know how to transform their current career or don’t know where to start, what advice would you give them?

Thunder:

I think that there are a few things that you should do. Network, number one. Be part of the community, contribute, contribute, contribute. But if you don’t know where to start contributing, Nostr is an amazing place to be. There are so many success stories from Nostr. Just in the last two weeks, I’ve heard two different stories on top of others. So, if you don’t know where to start, just go to Nostr, post a note like, “Hey, I do this, this is how I can help you guys. Do you need me for anything?” Maybe, perhaps, you will be surprised. Just give it a few days, or a few hours, and you will be surprised. So, that’s one good way. If you are an engineer, naturally, you’re going to go to open-source projects. But if you’re not an engineer, I’m not a technical person, we all can contribute, even if we’re not technical people. So, if you don’t know where to begin, Nostr is your place.

Martell Fox:

And there’s also this awesome ebook that just came out, “Kiss Your Fiat Job Goodbye.” So, you should read that as well if you’re looking for some tips.

Vivian Cheng:

What is your thought, Martell, on this?

Martell Fox:

To read this ebook!

Vivian Cheng:

Oh, wow, clear call to action there. I’ll add something here. We’re lucky; we’re in this industry of proof of work. So, oftentimes, if we do put in the effort to produce the proof of work and give it away, offer value first, go to the companies that you want to work for. On Twitter, we’re all very approachable. Everybody in this industry that I’ve ever met, they’re very approachable. So, find people that you want to work for, which is very important, and think of where you can offer value and share ideas. Don’t be afraid of saying them out loud, don’t be afraid of simply asking for an opportunity, and sometimes that surprises you. If you put in that proof of work, give it away, offer value first, and the universe will see it, and then the rest will be history. Alright, so how do we stay close to your work? I guess we’ll start with Martell.

Martell Fox:

Well, we’re both on Nostr and Twitter. I don’t know, Rune, if you are, but we should connect there. So, I’m on Twitter, just my first and last name, Martell Fox, and then on Nostr, I’m Fox.

Thunder:

Okay, I’m on all social media, but yeah, just follow “Thunder,” it’s my handle for all social media.

Rune Ostgard:

So, I’m also on Nostr and Twitter. You find me just search for my name, Rune Ostgard.

Vivian Cheng:

Alright, great. Well, before we wrap up the panel, I do have one more question for the recruiters. So, Bitcoin is doing well, and we’re all happy to be here for this, and where do you see the job landscape change in the next few months? Where are we going to see more flood of new roles? What areas, if people are looking for a Bitcoin job, where do they have the highest chance of success?

Thunder:

I wanted to give you (Martell) more time to dig into this question, but now that I’m thinking about it, I’m hoping to see more operational roles. I think the market’s going to start growing very soon. We’re going to see more startups, which automatically more job openings. I hope we are going to see more operational side positions open up.

Martell Fox:

I think that’s right actually because most of the companies that are exclusively focused on bitcoin, they’re quite small and operations is how we scale up. You need killer operators to come in and create new processes. Basically when you grow from three people to 30, and it happen can happen pretty fast, all your old systems and the ways of working are totally different and you need new systems. Of course the rules should be as few as possible and everything should be intuitive, but yeah we need we need more operators in the space.

As I mentioned earlier, when the bull market happens there’s more funding so there’s going to be more opportunities related to marketing, sales, operations, and hopefully human resources. I think there’s very few of us in the space. Before I started working in Bitcoin, I started watching the space and that’s why I thought this whole Bitcoin thing was very intimidating to me at first, but I didn’t seeing anyone who’s working in Human Resources in the space, so I jumped on the opportunity. Now there’s a handful of us.

Thunder:

I think that when we talk about Bitcoin-only recruiters, I am aware of maybe three to four people, including two of us, and I want to see more. I want to see more people doing that, so yeah, we need more human resources and recruiters in the Bitcoin space.

Vivian Cheng:

All right, so it means we’ll see an increase for non-technical roles in the space, so good, good news everyone. And for something like operational, you just have to prove that you can do the job. It’s not about past experience sometimes, is it? It’s about the cultural fit, it’s about your communication skills, so there are so many soft skills that are going to matter so much more, especially in the Bitcoin space. Any final remarks before we wrap up this panel, um?

Martell Fox:

I wish everyone good luck for finding their dream job in Bitcoin. Read that ebook that Thunder wrote, and thank you, Vivian, for all the wonderful questions. You’re really great at hosting.

Thunder:

I’ll give you a spoiler, so I quoted Rockstar, I think, in the ebook, so I’m going to do it again. If you actually read the ebook, just don’t hate me for repeating myself, but he said that “Bitcoin doesn’t need us, we need Bitcoin,” which I agree with, but I’ll add that the Bitcoin industry also needs us. I would like the audience to leave this Open-Source stage today with that in mind: The Bitcoin industry needs us. And I really want to support and motivate each one of you,. You can always reach out if you need any assistance or advice, conversation, whatever, to just follow your path and follow your dream, and don’t give up. The industry will grow; there will be enough jobs for all of us, just please don’t give up!

Rune Ostgard:

Okay, I think the most important thing is to go out and meet other bitcoiners and grow your network, and build your local community. As I said, that’s what’s going to be your base; it’s very important to have that. Try to learn about Bitcoin from all different angles, start with those who interest you the most, read a few books perhaps. Those are my suggestions.

Vivian Cheng:

Right, and for me, my final remarks are about one of my guests on my podcast, Katie the Russian, she said something that resonated with me, and I thought it’s relevant to share here. She told me “Don’t compromise, don’t compromise, there’s a perfect dream job for you in Bitcoin out there, you just have to find it, and you just have to get it. Don’t compromise, work for it, show some proof of work, offer value, and if you consider it done, and work towards it with discipline and consistency, things will pick up for you.”

Thank you so much for coming to the panel of, um, Bitcoin Dream Job. I hope this is helpful. Thanks for the insights from our great panelists, and hope everyone has a blast in at Bitcoin Atlantis!

Follow the panelists: Thunder, Martell Fox, Rune Ostgard, Vivian Cheng
Watch the original content: The Bitcoin Dream Job
Also read: Bitcoin is for Everyone by Michael Saylor

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